Set for Success: Martin Spiller

In this episode, Alumni Manager Nic Ashton is joined by Martin Spiller. Martin is a Chartered Accountant and non-practising barrister whose career has spanned corporate finance, entrepreneurship and early-stage investing.

Martin discusses what shaping long-term success looks like, as well as how he supports growing businesses, builds credibility as a trusted financial voice and uses initiatives like #FreeAdviceFriday to give back.

Transcript

Nic: Hello everyone, and welcome back to the University of Law podcast. I'm Nic Ashton, alumni manager here at idle, and today I'm joined by Martin Spiller. Martin is a chartered accountant, a non-practicing barrister with years of experience in finance, business and education. He has worked as a CFO, corporate financier, entrepreneur, serial non-executive director, early stage investor, the list goes on. He runs a popular Free Advice Friday initiative on LinkedIn, sharing practical insights and guidance. We'll be chatting about his career path and approach to supporting aspiring professionals. Hi, Martin. Welcome. 

 Martin: Thanks, Nic. Thanks for inviting me. Well, I never thought I'd get invited to a podcast at the University of Law, given that I didn't really have what you can call a career. So I'm very excited about how... 

 Nic: You're very welcome. You've had a fascinating and varied career. When you look back, did you ever expect your career to be so diverse? 

 Martin: So it looks really unintentional. And if I'm talking about it, I generally say that, yeah, it's just a random walk. Some of it was intentional. So I knew exactly what I was going to do when I did it. So I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur, which dictated my initial choices. And I also think if your career looks super organized these days, you're probably not stretching yourself hard enough. 

But some of it is about taking opportunities that you find. And you know, I wanted to be a barrister, but I couldn't afford to be a barrister. Hence the finance route. But then there's a chance, after I sold my business, to do the barrister thing. And I think I look rather dashing in a wig, if nothing else. But also, it was a great opportunity. So I think it's a bit of both. I expected it to be a bit varied, maybe not quite as varied. I don't think I ever set out to end up in education, for example. But you take the opportunities you get. 

And also I think as you grow older and develop, your preferences change and what you like doing changes. And I probably wanted to be the next Warren Buffett and take over the world when I was 20. At 50, I don't really want to do that, so I probably can't do that as well—that's another point. But, you know, things change and people change and times change. But I do think these days, the days of being in a job for 20 years are over. And therefore, if you're not messing around a little bit and trying to explore opportunities, you're probably playing a bit safe. But I would say that, I'm an entrepreneur, right? 

 Nic: I think it's quite brave. It's quite a leap of faith, isn't it, to just leave something that you know so well? 

 Martin: Yeah. It's interesting. So I recently left Cranfield University after four and a half years because, being completely honest and frank, I told them if they didn't promote me, I would leave, and they didn't believe me and I didn't get promoted. And probably they don't believe I was due a promotion. I was absolutely fine. But you could watch a lot of my colleagues who were in the job, literally... the idea of just leaving something panics them. 

But also, I have to say, the intentional part is I earned enough money very, very early on with my first business, got rid of my mortgage, so I was able to do these things and that makes a difference. So it looks like a random walk, and it is a bit of a random walk, but there is intention behind it. So to say that I didn't plan for some of this stuff... obviously you can't plan to do well, but you know, once you take those opportunities... 

 Nic: Yeah, and advocating for yourself and knowing your worth is important as well. 

 Martin: Yeah, 100%. But also just, sometimes taking a risk, right? I mean, again, it depends on your circumstances. I don't have children. I have an ex-wife and an ex-fiancé and a mum. I have a dog now, Fernando, which is pretty much the center of my universe. So as long as I can afford to feed me and Fernando and keep a roof over my head, I can take more risks than if I've got two children, for example. So everybody's a bit different. 

But for me, I like a bit of risk. And I also don't like to be bored. And sometimes if you stay in the same spot... like my first business, super profitable, amazing. But it was boring after a while. I knew that every month... so we're in January now, I could tell you what I'd be doing. We'd be launching Valentine's Day, because the gift work company would be launching Valentine's Day, and I'd be planning Father's Day and Christmas for the next year. And I found that a bit dull at the end. So for me, yeah, risk is always good. 

Now you've sort of answered this question a little... Okay, so you just said I'm not very good... the other thing is I'm not very good at following rules. 

 Nic: But what motivated you to take on so many different roles across finance, law and education? 

 Martin: Yeah, I mean, the finance was so when I was... so I'm old. So when I was coming out of university, barristers didn't get paid anything. There wasn't a minimum wage for barristers and I wanted to be a barrister. But you had to finance your first six, the first six months where you earn nothing and you follow your pupil masters around, and then whatever you could earn in the second six is what paid you. And I couldn't afford that. I don't suddenly... I keep looking for the rich relatives, but I don't have any. My parents weren't poor, but they couldn't fund that, and finance did. 

So I was an Arthur Andersen scholarship student. I got that before university, so I was there... they had places for 50, I think Deloitte have taken over now, places for 50 students and there was 35 in my year. And that's what I'm kind of going back to what I said about being intentional. I knew I wanted to have a good life as a student, so I went and got a scholarship. And I think, and this is again showing my age, back before the internet, I used a typewriter and applied to something like 190 different placements using a typewriter and a photocopied CV. Because I found a book on internships, most of them were like for engineering. I was doing business and they rejected me outright. But I got the offer onto Arthur Andersen. 

So that is my intention. I knew I wanted to be funded through university and have work experience, but I also knew I couldn't come out and do the bar. So I went back into finance where they pay better and they pay more readily. 

And then I guess coming into the law thing, there's two parts. One is I needed something to do after I sold my first business and I wasn't going to do an MBA because I was already teaching MBA, and I'm a chartered accountant, and I wanted to prove that I could do the bar. But also legal advice as entrepreneurs... quite hard to get good legal advice at a price. And the bar is amazing training, I have to say. The whole advocacy stuff and all of that was really insightful. 

And then the random bit is education. I don't think anybody ever thought I'd end up being a lecturer at university, but actually, probably the thing I'm most passionate about is teaching. It's what I get the biggest boost from. I like my non-exec work and I like helping businesses grow and I like doing deals, but I really like the impact of teaching students, one-on-one with students and companies and things, when you make the tiniest bit of impact on them. 

 Nic: Brilliant. Thank you. And for students listening today who are worried about choosing the right path, what would you say about non-linear careers? 

 Martin: So again, I think we've seen the end of working for the same company for 30 years. For the most part, they're rare. I remember... it's a bit like when you find out somebody met somebody in real life dating. It's like, "Why? You didn't meet online, you weirdo?" I think the same goes. So for me, I think you need to be open to opportunities. I think you need to think. And I think there's more change coming. If you see things like the likes of McKinsey and the banks and the lawyers and the accounting firms taking less graduates on because of things like AI. So I think you need to be more open to non-linear. 

I think you need to plan and be intentional. So again, mine looks like a random walk, but I did get the scholarship program, so I had money to go through university. I took a finance role because I knew that I couldn't fund the bar room further then. So have a bit of a plan, but also keep yourself open to opportunities. And there's lots of new startups, new developments, new things coming within the firms. So maybe don't be as prescriptive as before. 

The one benefit of being in the UK over some of the markets as well is it doesn't really matter what your degree is or your master's degree or your postgraduate. You can still do... so you know, we're not like, for example, in Australia, where you have to be an accountant from university in order to be an accountant. We're quite lucky here, so I focus more on the training. 

And the one other thing I'd say is when you're at the University of Law or whatever—if you're not watching from the University of Law, why not? But if you are, open yourself up to all of the things that the university provides, because it really bugs me when my students at Cranfield or when I was at ULaw... you've got all these talks and events and things, go to them! Yeah, because they're there for a reason and they're there to open opportunities and they'll change your mind on what's available. So go to all the events, network like mad, but use that opportunity. You're only a student for a limited time. You can get away with things as a student you can't get away with when you're in a job, for example. 

 Nic: Yeah, so you're just sort of taking every opportunity that presents itself? 

 Martin: Massively. Like for example, at the bar you have to join an Inn, go to the dinners. Don't just view it as a "I have to do 12 dinners." Go to as many as you can. Firstly, for 10 pounds or whatever it is that you're doing these days, it's a great feed. But secondly, I got to see the ambassador, James, the American ambassador talk with his UK mirror about the Obama election at the time. These are opportunities you don't get outside of the University of Law. And I do loads of events and careers, but also talks and things. Go to them, meet new people, see new opportunities, keep your eyes open, keep your head up. Don't be... you know, maybe the days of "I'm going to be a solicitor or I'm going to be a barrister, I'm going to join this chambers, I'm going to do that," those opportunities might not be there. So you need to be a bit more kind of open up to the world, I would say. 

 Nic: Brilliant. Thank you. That's brilliant advice. And a few little bits on your professional insights: you provided expertise on things like the Chancellor's budget. What's involved in preparing for being a panelist, and what helped you build your credibility? 

 Martin: So you've hit a bit of a hobbyhorse of mine now. Firstly, I think you need to stay in your lane. So I try not to... so although I've run a lot of businesses and I've been involved in a lot of digital marketing agencies and things, I can provide strategic advice on marketing, but I can't do the do. It's not my thing. After somebody said, "Oh, you know a lot about marketing," yes, but if you put me in front of a Google Analytics thing and told me, I can't work it. So I think you need to stay in your lane. 

You also need to prepare like mad. So, you know, I don't just wing it. I spent hours preparing for that Chancellor's thing because I don't normally watch the budgets that closely. It's a confession, Nick, but I'm the accountant who finds doing taxes boring, I find it hard to get excited. I'm probably one of the few entrepreneurs... maybe I don't mind paying my fair share of tax. I don't really like what they're wasting it on—that's a political statement—but I don't mind paying. So, I find it all very turgid, but prepare like mad. Stay in your lane, build competence. 

At the moment there seems to be this whole kind of influencer generation of confidence over competence. I think you need to recognize what you're good at and what you're not good at. So, for example, I wouldn't go and stand up on a law panel about the latest developments in human rights law. I might enjoy watching it, but I'm not an expert. So stay in your lane, prepare like mad, and build competence in the things you want to talk about. If you want to talk about them, you better learn about them. Because the one thing... you'll get exposed really badly as a panelist or a speaker if you talk about things you don't really know much about, especially in the kind of troll era. 

I mean, there are trolls who follow things like CrowdCube, for example, the fundraising site, where they troll companies. There are trolls everywhere. I've had some absolute doozy fights on Twitter or X with people about stuff, but if you know your stuff, they can't really argue with the content. 

 Nic: Brilliant. Thank you. And how has your experience across multiple sectors helped how you advise companies as they grow, and is there an example of how your varied experience has come into play unexpectedly in your career? 

 Martin: I mean, I'm an interesting beast, okay? So I'm a chartered accountant, and hopefully with my mohawk—I used to have a man bun, but it was too hard to manage, so I went back to my mohawk. I would hate the idea that guys look at an office picture and go, "Oh, he's an accountant," so hopefully I don't look like one. 

 Nic: I don't think you do. 

 Martin: Good, thanks. I try hard. And I also try not to look like a senior lecturer or anything that I'm supposed to do. I think my background's interesting: I'm an accountant, so I can do numbers; I'm a practicing CFO, and I've spent lots of time in lots of different sectors. I know a bit about the law—no, I don't provide legal advice from the bar, just in case they're wondering—but obviously, if you're on the board of a company on a legal issue, you've got an opinion on that. And I can manage and scope... I used to be in charge of sales for my companies, which not many accountants do. 

So I think I offer a wide range of experience, which at the SME level is what you need. Because there's that phrase—and I hate it—"jack of all trades." We use it as if it's a pejorative, but the actual phrase I think is something more like, "A jack of all trades and a master of none is always better than a master of one," or something like that. But at the SME level, that's what you are: you are a jack of all trades, you have to deal with all sorts of things. 

So I guess that helps. In terms of when it's unexpected, just so you know, everybody did send me some of the questions in advance, and I genuinely couldn't think of one. I think that the thing about the SME life is it's always unexpected. So nobody... I mean, the story I always tell is, nobody tells you that at four in the morning, three nights running, you're going to be at your warehouse trying to get a starling out because it's setting off the alarm. And you have to respond, because if you don't respond, the police won't respond, and your insurance goes up or you won't get insurance. So three nights running, I was in my warehouse trying to get out birds and we couldn't find where they were getting in. So you're running around at four in the morning flapping a piece of cardboard, and you're really not very happy at your two business partners who didn't bother to answer the phone for the third night running. 

These are things you can't explain. The one thing I would say about SME life, the reason I like growing businesses, is it is so unexpected what you're going to be expected to do. Everything from fixing toilets, which... anybody who knows me knows I am about as practical as... well, I'm not allowed to do DIY. Because the first DIY I ever did broke a whole wall and cost about 2,000 pounds to fix. But those are the things you need to be challenged on. So I think being that jack of all trades is a good thing. 

And also it's a bit like watching AI output—you need to know your stuff in order to be able to see what you're doing. And so, you know, if you've got a marketing team, you need to be able to give input because when you're at an SME level, if you're the managing director or the chief financial officer or whatever, the buck kind of stops at you. There is nobody else to ask. And sometimes you have to answer questions about things or take punts on things that you've no idea about, but you have to do your research. And so I like that bit. 

But like I said, I racked my brain for an unexpected one, and not really, because most of the things just kind of happen and you deal with it. So yeah, just a bit of variety in the role, and I think that's what I like. When it gets boring, that's when I lose interest. To give you an example, I think last year at Cranfield, I did 2,150 hours of lecturing. I was told that the average lecturer does like 200 to 400. Because if I get bored, I'm going to probably do something bad if I had a contract of employment. So the best thing to do is keep me teaching, which I did, and I love that. 

And the best bit about teaching MBAs and MScs—because Cranfield is postgrad only—they have one set of questions, but when you are teaching somebody whose company it is... and I did 700 companies in four years... their questions come in all shapes and sizes. And they don't care if you've answered the question before for somebody else, they want the answer for them. And I love that because it keeps you on your toes, and that's the bit that used to get me out of bed every morning. I like the variety, and if life's a bit boring, I get bored, so I'm not very good at that. 

 Nic: You probably lucked out, and it sounds like you're always learning as well when doing that environment. 

 Martin: I love learning. If somebody tells me they know everything, I think that's the worst crime anybody can commit. You're always learning, you've always got something to know about somebody. I think people are quite closed off. Like in the last two weeks, I went to Athens and back, and then I went to Belfast, and I took some clubs. And the person on the seat next to me on the way back from Athens was doing a PhD about using light to create ultrasound for scanning. She was amazing. Then I sat next to a McKinsey associate partner where we were talking about AI in the insurance sector, which is a bit more interesting than it sounds—I have to say, whenever anybody mentions insurance. But if you're open to these things and you're willing to do so, there's much to learn, and nobody knows everything. The people who start telling you that they know everything, yeah, I think they're the ones to avoid. 

I've yet to meet anybody who does. I work with some people, and I've met some people in my life who are super brains, but even then, I think that's the Carol Dweck stuff, isn't it—the fixed vs. the growth mindset. And I think you should always... somebody described me as always inquisitive, and that's the best bit, yeah, mainly because I find some of the other bits of life so boring. So it's good to have variety and it's good to practice and learn from people. 

And like, for example, my cabbie from the other day was a Brentford fan and he's been there since forever. His seat is next to the dugouts, he knows the director, their favorite player is Rico Henry. We found all this out in that kind of 15 minutes from my house to Heathrow. But you find out all sorts from all sorts of people, and I think that's the best bit. 

 Nic: Yeah, I agree. And this one's a bit of a different one: if you weren't in finance, law or education—which, you know, you've done all these things—what do you think you'd be doing now? You can be as outlandish as you want. 

 Martin: Well, obviously, if anyone's looking at this on video—for those who aren't—my career in modeling was not going to happen with this mohawk! I genuinely have had the career I wanted. I found out I was good at business pretty early on. Like I told you before, I picked the Arthur Andersen scholarship. What I didn't mention is when I finished at university—so I went to what is now Bayes University for my undergrad—I had a few options, but I deliberately chose to go back to Arthur Andersen rather than to an investment bank because I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur, and the investment banks worked on bigger deals. I won't mention the name, but the one that I turned down, they were working on things like Vodafone management when that was a big deal, billions of pounds, and you'd have been working on the kind of Southeast Asian operation market stuff. 

Arthur Andersen, I was in the deal origination group first, then corporate finance, so massive experience. I'd been in corporate recovery before and ran 19 companies before I went to university because I was in there in '93, '94, the biggest bust in UK corporate history. And we were so short-staffed, so I ran a Cheesecake Factory, for example, in Stockton-on-Tees for six months. But I came back knowing I wanted to be an entrepreneur, and so for me, that was a deliberate move. I knew what I was good at and I had the career that I wanted. 

The benefit of that is it allows me to do other things. So quite a lot of my other stuff... when I sold my first business, I spent about 25% of my year giving back. And that's one of the reasons I like education—I feel like I'm kind of... I love the pay-it-forward, giving back movement, like doing nice things for people. I really wish we could all be a bit... I mean, I sound like some aging hippie now, but I'm not, but I just like the idea that we can all do a bit. Yeah, because if we all did a little bit of good... so that's one of the things that I'm most passionate about. But I've got the career I was destined to have. Yes, it spans a lot, but I think it was always that, because there's not very many other things I'm good at. I'm okay at sport—I played for a good rugby team, I used to be a really good swimmer until I hit 15 and got wider and wider and not taller and taller, and physics takes over. I've had a pretty good shot, but I think I'm where I'm supposed to be and I can't think of anything else I could have been. 

Yeah, I probably wouldn't have been very happy... The one thing I am happy about is even when I'm employed—which was scary at Cranfield, to be employed again—even when I'm employed, I know I've got a bailout because of the work I've done, and I'm not scared to bail out and go into other things. So I'm pretty much where I'm supposed to be, I think. 

 Nic: It's so funny because most people would say being employed is the non-scary bit, and being self-employed is the scary bit, so it's quite an interesting take on it. 

 Martin: Yeah, I mean I went back because of IR35. So if anybody doesn't know this, Inland Revenue 35, which all freelancers are scared of because it's whether you look like an employee or don't... don't look it up people, it's the dullest thing ever. But if you want to work for yourself, you're going to have to be good at understanding it. Then they changed the rules, and so all public bodies in receipt of public funds—which Cranfield was then—made the determination, not the subcontractor who previously was in charge. And so I was going to lose teaching because I couldn't do it through the system. And big shout out to my ex-boss, Professor Stephanie Hill, she gave me a shout when others wouldn't. 

But I was petrified. Like, the idea of having a contract after 20 years of being free. Like, I kept forgetting I have to submit requests for holiday, not just, "Oh, I'm going." Yes, I have clients, and yes, I have to report to them, but if I'm telling them I'm going... I've never been on holiday since I was maybe 25 without a laptop, so I just work wherever I am. My ex-wife and I had this amazing fight—we locked BlackBerrys back in the day in the safe on our honeymoon, but you could see after two or three days, both of us gave in and pulled them out like, "I'm just going to go for a walk," and both of us were on them. 

But having to fill in forms and have numbers of holiday days... and then my PDR, my performance development review, took me seven hours to do. I'll do millions of them for other people, but I've never had them done on me. So that's quite scary to me, massively. Mind you, there's some benefits to it too; it's quite interesting to do some self-reflection, because when you're the boss and nobody tells you... you might have a screaming match with your business partner, but that's a very different thing. So for me, that's scary, yeah. 

 Nic: Touching upon what you were saying about giving back, you're big on LinkedIn. You've got a presence on LinkedIn. Can you tell us about your Free Advice Friday initiative, how it started and what you hoped to achieve from it? 

 Martin: Well, when I quit Cranfield—I think I finished in August or September... the one thing I've realized over the years is I think I'm mildly dyspraxic and I'm really bad with dates, but because my week doesn't matter, even when I was at Cranfield I taught on weekends, I realized time has no meaning to me. But I went to a couple of courses; I did an AI ethics course, but I went to a LinkedIn course because I think you should. Straight out the gate, I thought I better do some things, otherwise I might be watching whatever the new Jeremy Kyle equivalent is. 

So I went on these courses and they told us that you have to do videos, so I decided I'm going to do something. It's also linked to launching a business, because there's no such thing as a free lunch. So I decided... I hate my face and I hate being on camera, but the only way LinkedIn works these days is video. So I actually did two things: I got an amazing column with some guys, Olly and Sam, for 9 a.m. business writing, and then I thought I'd do the video for LinkedIn. And I thought rather than just promote my company out, with my partners we'll make it into giving advice. I hate the idea of self-promotion for no reason, so we just do bits of advice and it turned into Free Advice Friday. And then when I was too busy to do it, it became Wisdom Wednesday and Motivation Monday—I could come up with a hashtag for any day! 

But the idea was just to give back, and hopefully people follow it, and even if they get the tiniest bit of advice and benefit, then I'm happy. So it was promoting us, getting our message out there, but at the same time, rather than just saying "Look how brilliant we are," okay... and I guess, sorry for rambling a bit, but I believe in transparency, and so I'm happy to tell people how I grow businesses, even if I'm in competition with them, because at the end of the day, there is a market for everybody. 

 Nic: Yeah. And what advice would you give to students on building their professional presence online? 

 Martin: Well, if I could just take it slightly wider, I think students need to network, network, network, network, network from the very first. Unless you've got a one-billion-pound trust fund or loads and loads of rich mates, you need to network from the get-go, and the university is the start. Build up that network, and like I said before, go to events. A friend of mine has raised loads of money for his business and he finds it super easy. He's like, "Well, it's really easy, just ring up these people." He has this great approach: "If I ring Nick, I'm going to ask you to listen to my presentation because I want your advice, I don't want you to invest, because Bob's my target, but if Bob hears Nick has listened, or Martin's already invested..." But he's got that network he spent the last 30 years building, so he finds it super easy because he's built a network. If you come to 34 years old and you want to launch something and you have no network, that's when it becomes super difficult. 

So network, network, network. Within that, social media can amplify your voice, so I link in with everybody now. Business cards are kind of dead as far as I can see, everybody clicks on that QR function that you've got in the app and everybody links in with each other. But I also quite like it because there are friends... like for example, I've linked with you now and we've met, you can see what people are up to. And I really love that. I met up with some friends I haven't seen for a year, and albeit there are loads of other things I've done, at least I had a good idea of what they've been up to professionally. 

LinkedIn's good. I think Instagram has definitely taken off and it's brilliant on the female side—I spend a lot of time working with female entrepreneurs. TikTok baffles me; I've finally got TikTok, but I don't know how it works. Twitter, I have to say, is probably my least favorite... well, Facebook is my least favorite because I've kind of stopped using it, but Twitter has become a bit more of a battleground than it used to be, hasn't it? Yeah, it didn't used to be. I met so many cool people through Twitter, but I think it's changed a lot and there isn't a substitute at the moment. Like, the BlueSky thing didn't really take off. 

The only issue I've got with LinkedIn is a few people are treating it more and more like a business Facebook and giving all these things about their life and romance and stuff, and from my side, there's a different place for that. 

 Nic: I agree, I think it should be business-focused. 

 Martin: Yeah, but it's a great way of keeping a network, particularly overseas. So for me, the wider advice is network your posteriors off, and LinkedIn's part of that strategy. But again, if you look at my LinkedIn, it is normally trying to give advice rather than self-promotion; I'll give something that I found that was useful. 

What's really interesting, I had my first viral LinkedIn post. I said something by Rory Sutherland—who, if you don't know, look him up, he's that kind of branding guru—and it was about wine, and I was linking it to SMEs. It was about wine in restaurants and how they set up the glasses to kind of force you down a certain route. All of a sudden—and I have to say, sorry gents, but it's us—I had all these people mansplaining to me. It's like, "Did you read what I wrote? It's not about the wine, it's about being more intentional in business and planning things out with your customers." But all sorts of people were mansplaining things to me, and I know I should have ignored them, but I'm not very able to do that. So I did end up having some fights. Somebody talked about God... again, whether you're religious or whether you're not, I don't think LinkedIn is the place for that. But it was very interesting how it was my first and only viral post. Most of mine stay within my network, who are broadly sensible. 

 Nic: Yeah, going viral can be good and bad content-wise. 

 Martin: It was fun! I had a great two days of fighting with all these people because I just can't resist that. I know I should grow up, but I guess I'm still an 18-year-old boy trying to get a rise out of people, and I got one too. Because at the moment, I don't have a full-time job, so I've got plenty of time to spend the night with me and my dog, and after about 9:00 he goes to sleep, so I've got to amuse myself. 

 Nic: Okay, I'm going to ask you a little bit about your advice for students. For students interested in careers in finance, corporate leadership or consultancy, what skills do you think they should focus on developing? Now, I know you've touched upon networking, but is there anything else that you think might be helpful? 

 Martin: Well, I think they have to be realistic. There are some industries... like everyone says, "I want to be at [insert top brand, top brand consultancy]." If your CV is not up there, if you don't have that, you need to be realistic about life. I know it's harsh and it sounds bad, and this idea that there's diversity—there is, but still, you're talking about top tiers. If you get it, fantastic, but be realistic about life. So do your research, think about how you compare with the average person that they pick. If you want to take a punt at it, go for it, but have a backup plan. Again, be intentional. 

So do your research, build your network, and try to make yourself really, really different. I would say the one thing that I like is standing out. There's a story: back in the day as an Arthur Andersen scholar, I was involved in scholar recruitment, and I went down and had 15 interviews over two days. Every single student had A-stars—back then I think it was straight A's, they've changed the numbers now and I can never keep up—but they had straight A's at GCSE and were all predicted four or five A-levels. So how do you stand out? 

The first person that stood out was a young lady—I'll call her a girl because at the time she was 16 or 17—who did a Saturday job. All her friends were going on about, "Oh, I've done an internship at Goldman Sachs, blah, blah, blah." Fine, and I'm not diminishing it, but the person who got a Saturday job on their own, who went round every single shop in their village and got a job, instantly stands out. You're like, "Well, that's quite mature at 16 or 17 to think of that." So for me, think about how you're going to stand out. Business skills are really good, work experience, volunteering... but again, no offense to it, if you've done the Duke of Edinburgh and all of that stuff, if everybody's done it from your school, you're not standing out. So think of a way. 

So research, network and stand out. And also, back to where we started, be a bit more open-minded. Look for other opportunities that you might want to go to. If you want to drop a name like McKinsey or Accenture or Bain, if you're not ready to do it now, it doesn't mean you won't do it in the future once you've got a bit more experience and become an expert in your space. The partner from McKinsey I sat next to on the flight the other day, he didn't start out there; he went a different route. So again, keep your options open. Those are kind of the four points I would stick to. 

 Nic: Yeah, brilliant. Thank you. And what should they expect during their early career and in interviews for these types of roles? Is there like a recurring question that has been slid at you in interviews you've had that you think probably comes up quite a lot? 

 Martin: Yeah, I mean, there are those questions—and I think they're rubbish, I'm sorry recruiter people—like, "Give me an example when you had a conflict of interest," or "Give me an example when you worked as a team." Those are the sorts of things that come up. Those are the bits where the careers team are really helpful. You know, I'm not too proud to take advice—I don't know everything, going back to what I said before. So I'm happy to take advice, and those careers guys and girls can really help you if you go and talk to them. Bringing them biscuits and being nice to them really helps, because—I have to say, sorry to the students—some of the students feel quite entitled, but recruiters are people at the end of the day. Ask the careers team, they've got the latest questions that come up. 

Be prepared for annoying people like me. For me, I'd always do things like: if you put down "reading" on your CV, I'm going to ask you what book you read and ask you to tell me about it. And so many times people will stumble like, "Oh, well, I like reading Cosmo." It's like, well, that's not quite the same thing. So I'll always ask you the odd one; be prepared for the odd ones, because in big firms, especially when you get to the partner level, partners can do whatever they want. They rule the roost and they tend to be quite different. 

But do your research, speak to your careers team, and start to prepare. The other thing you can use—and I know it might be controversial—is AI. It's brilliant for stuff like this: "What are the top ten most common questions that are asked?" It's got all this stuff and you can practice. And again, what I would do is aim to be punchy and different rather than just the same, because if I've seen ten people in a day, I've got to try and remember them. 

 Nic: Yep, I agree. I mean, it really helps not to just blend in, doesn't it? 

 Martin: It does, and there are visual cues you can use. I've got a friend who is a brand owner and now a LinkedIn influencer, and he wears these really, really weird jumpers—he's known for it. I've got another mate who's never out of branded gear for his business, no matter what business it is—one day he's in orange, now he's in yellow, he's always got his branded t-shirt on. All his friends are always ripping into him like, "Do you actually own any non-business merch?" But yeah, think about how you're going to stand out—your hair, your style... 

But you have to be true to yourself. Oscar Wilde said it—I'm ripping him off and butchered the quote—but "Be yourself, everyone else is already taken." You can only be you, but again, be a bit more intentional and don't just wing it. So maybe dress differently, or maybe wear a tie that's different, or things that stand out—shoes, handbags for women, anything that highlights your passion and points of difference, that would be my advice. Because again, it's a numbers game, and I have to say—making myself sound like an old fart again—but I do feel sorry for this generation. It's super competitive. My parents used to talk to me about how you'd walk out of one job and straight into another; that didn't happen for me, but it wasn't as hard as it is now, I don't think. So use every tool to your advantage, show your differences, and practice. 

Try to get as many interviews as possible because you get better muscle memory. We were doing something the other day... I did my first hustings. I've just won an election—I guess by the time this goes out, it'll have been announced so I'm safe—I've been made a non-executive director of IPSE, which is for independent professionals and the self-employed. I did my first hustings on Discord. I didn't know anything about Discord as a channel, but we did an online thing. There were two candidates for finance, which I was one, competing for one role, and the other gentleman sadly went sick. So maybe that's how I got it by default, I don't know! But for the general roles, the other candidates were really nervous, whereas I spend hours on camera all the time doing teaching and Zoom, so it becomes like muscle memory. You get used to it. I hate looking at my face back, but as long as I can minimize it to a square in the corner, I'm alright with it. But I'm cool with being online, and there is a different energy to online versus in-person, for example. So get practice in, because it makes a lot of difference to how you come across in interviews. 

 Nic: Thank you. And we are down to the last question: what's the best piece of advice you've received in your career that still guides you today? 

 Martin: Oh, that's easy. This was my favorite question, so thank you. It is: "Please say thank you and mean it." 

When I was 16 at school, I had an amazing tutor, Mr. Greenwood, who brought business to my school, which was a fairly traditional grammar school—actually the ninth best in England at the time, so very traditional, Latin, Oxford, Cambridge type. And he brought in a business course, and I took a punt on it rather than just doing economics, which is what I thought I was going to do. And we had this talk from the Managing Director of a famous company called Kingston Communications, based in Kingston upon Hull. The guy used to be a "pole basher," as he called it—he was the guy who went up the poles back when telephone cables were on poles. And he said, "You should say please, and you should say thank you, and you should look after everybody from the top to the bottom equally." 

The method he talked about was how the poles for the cables used to have grass around them, and that's where dogs would go to the toilet. And he said, "That's okay, but if you get poo on your boots on the way up, you get it on your hands on the way down." It really stuck with me. I think all the way through, if you look after everybody equally and don't treat the boss better than you treat the receptionist or the admin staff, that really stands you in good stead. Yes, the admin people have to do what you tell them when you're senior, but they don't have to go out of their way for you. 

At Arthur Andersen, I was always famous for being able to get my last-minute printing done in the print room overnight when I hadn't booked it in and forgot until late. Why? Because I used to buy the guys in the print room beer, take it down to them, and I would actually go down and help them do it when I'd forgotten to book it in. I would sit there, they would show me how to use the machine, and I would do the hard work alongside them, treating them like human beings. "Please, can you do this? I'm really sorry, and thank you for doing it," and genuinely meaning it. Turning up with a bunch of beer every now and then, or cookies, goes a really, really long way. I'm not trying to bribe them, it's just genuinely saying thank you for your efforts. Show people their worth. 

For one final example, I did a management buyout of an IT support business from 2015 to 2021. We had this really cool office outside of Bath, which was a hotel, conference center, and shared working space inside a beautiful manor house with an ugly 1970s tack-on that somebody had approved. I loved it because it had parking and I could commute to work. When I stayed overnight, it took two seconds to get from my favorite room on the third floor straight into our office. But there was a reception downstairs. My previous businesses never needed a receptionist, so I'd never had one before. We had an applicant interviewing for a technician role, and he was amazing in the interview. But afterward, one of our team members came to me and said, "Did you hear how he was talking to the receptionist downstairs when he came in?" Apparently, he'd been really rude to her. That was instantly interesting to me because I believe you treat everybody the same, and that behavior really stood out as a red flag. 

So that's the advice: be the same, treat everybody with respect, and it will take you a really long way. People will really help you if you're nice to them and mean it—it's not about being Machiavellian, it's about actually meaning it. 

 Nic: Yeah, and it helps you make genuine connections as well, doesn't it, if you're treating everyone nicely? 

 Martin: I think so, and it goes back to building a network. The reason people help my friend I mentioned earlier is because he introduces people with no immediate benefit to himself. If he thinks there's a good connection to be had, he'll just make the connection. Over time, that builds up a lot of goodwill. 

I don't think the fundamentals have changed, even though technology and all the rest of it changes. The fundamentals are: people are people. I remember back in '93 there was an article saying, "The internet means we're all going to stay home and just order things." But people go outside for a reason, right? You could just stay at home, but it'd be a very boring world if you just stayed in the house. 

 Nic: We did love to catastrophize in the 90s, though, didn't we? 

 Martin: We did, and I think we might be doing it a bit now too. Back then, they did a test to see if people could live solely off the internet, and at the time the delivery and infrastructure networks weren't very good, so nearly everybody almost died of starvation! And do you remember the Millennium Bug, how it was going to destroy everything? I do. I was actually out in London that night waiting for it all to fall apart, and it didn't happen, did it? I just went home on the tube from Wembley—and I don't even really do the tube! 

But yeah, I think you can keep it really simple. For me, I always try to be as humble as I possibly can, because I'm no better or worse than anybody else. 

 Nic: Brilliant. Thank you. That's sound advice, and thank you for speaking to us today, for sharing all of your career insights, your memories, and your advice. 

 Martin: And thank you for having me on the one podcast I never thought I'd be on, given it's a career podcast!