Set for Success: Paul Loynes

In this episode, Alumni Manager Nic Ashton is joined by Paul Loynes. Paul trained at Clifford Chance, worked as a partner at a major US law firm and now runs his own consultancy - Lemox Consulting.

Paul shares insights from his varied career and reflects on the importance of mentoring. Drawing on his pro bono and mentoring experiences with our students in the pro bono advice clinics, he offers advice for students exploring careers in law, consulting and the evolving legal tech sector.

Transcript

Nic: Welcome back to the University of Law podcast. I'm Nick Ashton, alumni manager here at Yale with our guest, Paul Loynes, whose career has spanned over 25 years. He trained at Clifford Chance and has worked as a partner at a major US law firm and now runs his own consultancy, Lemox consulting, alongside his work. Paul also dedicates his time to a legal advice clinic, offering pro-bono support and mentoring to Yale law students. 

 Nic: Hi Paul, welcome. You've had such a varied career, from magic circle law firms to global investment firms. Looking back, did you have a clear career path from the outset? 

 Paul: Well, the obvious answer was to try and say yes, but of course that's not the case. And I think as we are in changing times with, and I'm sure some things that we'll touch upon, in the legal world with AI and, and how things exist. So when I started in 1996, what I now do didn't exist. And so, no, there was no grand plan. But I would like to think I was always curious and flexible and was always well mentored. And so, to answer your question, no, it wasn't a master plan. 

 Nic: And I think I know what you're going to say to this, because if you're saying that the job didn't exist, is there a skill that you've developed outside of law that's been unexpectedly valuable? 

 Paul: I think it's just always goes back to a simple concept of intellectual curiosity. Whether that's about the law or whether that's about what you do. It's sort of the law. But you've got to be intellectually curious because there is no way that any of us can predict what the students will be doing in 2040, in 2050. 

 Nic: Yeah, 25 years time. 

 Paul: So I've been doing this for 25 years. And my definition, the next people of my age will be in 2050. No one knows what they're going to be doing. And so I've always thrived and enjoyed that intellectual curiosity and never being self-pitying home. So constantly learning new things and developing yourself to make sure that you know what's going on, interact. And sometimes, it's not so regimented. It's not okay, "Today I must learn about so and so." It's just about having a freshness about learning. Know I'm, obviously, old of the most of the people that were during this pod, but I still love learning. I still love learning new things. I still wake up, and if, and if someone sends me, a link about something that I didn't know before... I, also having teenage kids, yeah, I learn from them. So, yeah, it's just, it's just the, the ability to keep wanting to learn and never think that you've learned enough. 

 Nic: Thank you. I'm going to ask you about AI now. Big question, big topic at the moment. Having worked in and with legal technology companies such as Robin, have you seen AI change the legal landscape? 

 Paul: Yes, in some bad ways, but in some good ways. So I have been a consultant to a, an AI business, as you mentioned, and I, and I'm no director of a business up at Derby effective builds the, the data centers to, to effectively process AI. It's fascinating, and it's so quickly moving. So I think the difficulty for law firms is going to be the tasks that junior lawyers used to do can become commoditized, but the tasks that which people of my experience can do can't be commoditized. But of course, how do you become a partner of a law firm unless you've done the tasks that can now be done by AI? And I don't think anyone's got the answer yet. 

Certainly talking to my friends who are partners in law firms, they are more scared about the people who are in their early stages of partnership. Not, not, not the junior lawyers, because the junior lawyers are much better AI and using the AI skills. And you have a 35-year-old junior partners. But yes, it's, it's going to make a massive difference. Make with me if I want to, generate a set of board minutes for one of the someone director of takes, you know, 30 seconds. But it takes me 30 seconds because I know what to put in. 

 Nic: Yeah. 

 Paul: Whereas if somebody who is a junior lawyer, it would still take the, probably the same amount of time as if they do themselves, because they don't have the parameters to know what to put in. And so that's going to be the interesting challenge about how do you get people skilled enough to be able to use AI properly. And we've obviously seen, in the bar, you know, people submitting, pleadings with fake cases. How do you, how do you police legal AI? How do you have the judgment to know this is right, this is wrong? So I think it's going to be a really interesting, for a few years. And as I say, I'm fortunate enough to be able to be experienced enough to know the inputs and recognize the outputs. But I think that will be the key. When will you know that you know the correct inputs? When we be experienced enough to monitor your outputs? 

 Nic: Yeah, you have to have that base of knowledge before correcting, right? You can't just say yeah, it's a tool. 

 Paul: Correct, it's not, it's not just saying what is the capital of France. It is Paris, you know. And it is saying, okay, can you give me a security document for, for this loan agreement. And if you get it wrong, obviously your firm is actually liable, yeah, for that. So I think that's going to be the challenge. How do you, how do firms and how do lawyers navigate that path of knowing how to use it? You know, you, know one can't be King Canute or a Luddite. You can't say, "Go away, go away. This isn't going to happen." Of course it is. 

 Nic: Yeah. 

 Paul: But I think there's going to be a lot more, malpractice claims, because I think the people that will pretend that they are good lawyers will use AI, but not know quite the point, the inputs, inputs. 

 Nic: Thank you. It's quite a, quite tricky, isn't it? Quite tricky sort of set of landscape to navigate at the moment. Looking backwards, how much do you think things have changed in the last five years? 

 Paul: With this last five years, it's probably the snowball going down the hill. It's accelerating. I certainly see work products from people that have, that have been using AI, which just isn't good enough. I guess the point, because I know who the inputs and outputs are, the work product that I produce and the work product that the best firms produce is still as good as ever. But you are seeing more saltiness. 

 Nic: Yeah, and you kind of touched on this already, but what do you think lawyers should be aware of on the horizon from a legal tech standpoint? 

 Paul: Well, firstly, you've got to know the law. And I know that sounds incredibly facile, but it isn't. You know, we all lawyers, we all, you know, on the role of solicitors. We did all go to university. We did all, yeah, my kids go to ULaw. We, we all did our training contracts. So we do actually need to know. So it is in the case of, you can just pretend that you don't know. And so you've just, again, it sounds like really simple, but you've just, you've got to go back to your fundamentals. You've got to trust your fundamentals. You want to trust the fact that you, it does take many, many years to become a solicitor or a barrister, and rightly. 

And so that's what I would stress to people considering a career in law, for a criminal is a fantastic thing, but it isn't easy to do it. It's a, it's a multi-year commitment to, to be able to do it. And then of course, an even longer commitment to being good at this. 

 Nic: Yeah, so you know, AI is not taking things away, it's just helping us? 

 Paul: I think, I think it's, I think it's taking away from people that don't know what they're doing. 

 Nic: Yeah, okay. Thank you. And, I can talk a little bit about mentoring now. You split your time between pro-bono work and mentoring, you know, as legal advice clinic. What inspired you to take that on, for example? 

 Paul: I was fortunate enough when I started, as a trainee at Clifford Chance by some great mentors. And the best mentoring at that stage, you sort of don't know you're getting it, you know. It's the senior partner of, the department that you're in just says, "Come along to this meeting." And, and he says, "Yeah, we're not gonna charge you for this. Just like you said, the couldn't be quiet." And, and the, the, as you get older, you realize that that was mentoring. And then the task that someone gives you, which, of course, they can do themselves quicker than you, but they say, "Well, what do you have to do with this?" And then, and then they sit down with you and point out your, your faults or your mistakes. 

No, no, not, not, not harshly incidentally, because yeah, of course, you know, someone that can't do something yet by definition will make mistakes. And so I was very fortunate in my career and not just in my early years, actually, when I was, but when I became a partner in a law firm, when I became, you know, relatively senior in a, in a global finance institution, there were always people that were willing to match up with that stuff. And so, yeah, I was mentors at times that I was being mentored. And, and I realized that the people that were mentoring me did know they were mean to me, even though I didn't, you know, I didn't know what was the mentee, but they knew they were the mentor. And so I've always tried to do that. So as I got more senior in private practice, you know, it was try to do the same things that were done for me. 

I mean, I often joke if I could get 1% of the earnings of everybody I mentor, I'd be a billionaire by now. But, but, but, you know, they didn't become successful because I mentored them; they became successful because they were driven. But, yeah, it's a real privilege now to look around the city and to look around the major project houses and to see lots and lots of people that, younger than me who, who worked with me, that if I'm just a tiny part of their success, it's really nice thing to to know that you've done that. 

 Nic: I think probably, from what you've described, you have a particular style of mentoring of your own. How would you describe that? More like your teachers who mentor you, or do you do things a little bit differently? 

 Paul: I think, I think, I think, I think teaching is probably the wrong word because teaching implies the classroom environment. I'd say it's more of an osmosis. It's more of a, sit. And one of the nice things about being a junior lawyer when I was a junior, that you shared an office with someone. I was fortunate to share offices with very senior partners. And so unless it was really confidential, you just listened. So, as I say, teaching, I think, is the, is the wrong word. Often there were times where you were, where, where literally there's the documents you've drafted. These documents, let's go through it and do it this way. But mainly it was just a observational inside of, of it, and that's how you were, you were mentored. 

 Nic: Like picking up those skills, yeah, from imitation, I suppose? 

 Paul: Well, I mean not, not, not necessarily rotations. Sometimes you saw people who you certainly wouldn't imitate them, you know. Perhaps they were overly aggressive or they had a style that you chose not, not to pursue yourself. But it was the, it was the breadth of experiences, and that was the key. 

 Nic: And turning it around, has one of your mentees ever taught you something unexpected? 

 Paul: Oh, of course. Of course. I go back to my university days, and, I was fortunate to be taught criminal law by a very, very senior, QC, as they were then, because obviously the Queen was a lifelong king and, and I remember him saying to me, "I, I teach because every time I teach, someone teaches me something." And it's just, just, it seems almost cliché to say I hadn't thought of that. But unless you are so arrogant to think that you're always right... but then, yes, there are tons and tons of times, some someone that I've been, there's been junior to me. And so it may not have been mentoring in, in, in sort of inverted commas, "This is a mentor session," but this is us working together and they say, "Oh, well, are you sure about us?" 

And I certainly found that when I went into, into an in-house role where you've got a bunch of guys, who aren't lawyers and, and he or she would be saying, "Okay, well, you've just said that's what we're doing. Why?" And that's really interesting when, when you're surrounded by non-lawyers because obviously in a law firm by definition difference a lawyer, so I found it absolutely fantastic when you couldn't rest on your laurels and just say, "Oh, yeah, of course. Is this because this is what it always is?" And so, yes. So tons and tons of people that I've worked with have often asked me to go back to fundamentals and explain what is this? And that's a really challenging thing to do actually, rather than saying it is because it is. 

 Nic: Yeah, it's much better if you can actually say, "Well, it's this for this reason." That makes you think about it, doesn't it? 

 Paul: Correct, it, it just, repeats but just drops it back. 

 Nic: Yeah. And do you think the mentoring has changed since you started your career? 

 Paul: I think there are challenges in the workplace that lead to that. Obviously when I first started, there was in office five days a week, but you shared an office with a, with a senior lawyer? No, with, with homeworking, I think that makes it more challenging, yeah, to my pointed a bit. Osmosis, if you're not in the same environment as people, it's harder to, to have that sort of informal mentoring because you just aren't in proximity. 

 Nic: Just to talk about your pro-bono work a little bit, what's the benefit of students getting involved with Pro Bono? And where do you even start on that? 

 Paul: I mean, I was, I was fortunate enough to be involved in pro bono, literally from day one of my career. And part of it to begin with is, oh, I feel like I need to do this. But, but I've been doing pro bono work, you know, since I started, work in 1996. The advantages are probably, or threefold, actually. So, firstly, you know, you as a senior lawyer, giving the benefit of advice to somebody who, who couldn't afford it, hence pro bono. And the second benefit is, is obviously that, that reverse angle, someone's receiving the advice, they receive an invoice that they could pay for. But the third one is just for the, the students to see advice being given. 

You know, I say, the way I do my pro bono clinics at, at ULaw, I always have a sort of ten minute introduction, and then, and then, and then we they observe the clients, and then we have a ten, 15 minute session afterwards. And I say I treat somebody who's got a dispute about their bakery in Liverpool, she's not, because that was the reason why I did exactly the same as if I'm doing a 10 billion takeover. The issues, are different, but the emotions are the same. Someone cares about something. And so I think it's, I think it's absolutely fantastic for students to be able to see law being given in a, in a in the actual reason in which is meant to be given. You can read a textbook, you can go online, you can, yeah, you can get a first in your, in your paper. But yeah, it's not medicine. Knowing, knowing how to fix someone's arm is of no use unless you fix their arm. 

 Nic: It's like the practical, it's practicing. 

 Paul: And so that's, that's, that's, that's, that's why I do it. And that's why I would like to think students observe the sessions that I do that they're seeing, you know, a hold practitioner practice law. And even if, if, if, even if they may think the subject matter itself isn't oil and that's not right, it's not right. 

 Nic: With that said, what's your most interesting case you've worked on with students in the past year? 

 Paul: Well, I obviously there's been the bakery, bakery one. You've given it away. No, I'm sorry. That's okay. I mean, the, the bakery was, was, was interesting. I've got, I've got to be have because obviously there is confidentiality. So, so that was, that was an award-winning bakery. And I in the situation where, the bakery itself was going absolutely fantastically, but the two shareholders were also, emotional partners, and they'd split up as a emotional partnership. And so they were looking for advice as to how to keep the business going despite the, the, the failure of that, of their emotional relationship. And that's really interesting because, yeah, I, I can't say too much because I'll give it away. But, you know, I'll do the some of the bread, political bread, but really great bread because then. Yeah. 

And, and I, yeah. And so that's one. The other ones I really like doing is the, the bullies, the people who have, who have been told something that you... "Oh, okay. You got to stop using this because at big company, taxable company, because these small companies..." The bullies, I bullies, yeah. So, again, I can't really give specifics because that would breach confidentiality, but, yeah, there's something really nice. And that's not always, not always been my, you know, pro bono work, but, in other aspects, something really nice about sending a letter to a corporation with my name on my LinkedIn profile and just saying, "I can't do this." 

 Nic: I find that really sticking up for the small people, yeah, exactly. 

 Paul: Exactly, yeah. 

 Nic: Okay, I'm going to ask you a little bit about your kind of general career reflections now. What has helped you stay adaptable throughout your career? 

 Paul: I think linked my first, my first point: I, I just enjoy things. I, I'm intellectually curious. I, just enjoy learning. So very simplistic, but I think that's, that's the overwhelming sort of possibly of how I think about things. 

 Nic: And is there a lesson you learned the hard way that you now pass on to others? 

 Paul: Oh, no, I didn't think about this answer. I think only once or twice in my career did I ever go to a meeting ill-prepared, and I thought I could wing it. And guess what? You couldn't. I couldn't believe it. And so, I always tell the students, when I do that ten-minute precursor that I mentioned, all, they always say, "Don't ever go to a meeting ill-prepared." And I did it once or twice, and I've never done it since. 

 Nic: It's a good life lesson in general, and outside, even outside of work, I would say. 

 Paul: Yeah, you know... 

 Nic: What does success look like for you now compared to when you were starting your career? 

 Paul: Well, when you start your career, when you're in your 20s, then you can often equate success with, with money. Well, let's be blunt. You know, law, if you're successful, is a very oriented profession. And so I'm not overly financially motivated, but we like you, you become a lawyer, not a social worker, for obvious reasons. Yeah. And so I was probably thinking, you know, training obviously trained at a magic circle firm and my partner in a big global law firm, so it's like money, money, money. Not to the, that wasn't the sole aim, but it's, you know, it's a, it's a nice flow-through from what you do. 

Now what does success mean? Well, yeah, I am fortunate, having been in law for 25 to 30 years, that, that, that, that aspect is now is no longer important to me. So no, it's just, it's just fun. I have a pretty basic rule that I don't if people don't like anymore. Do me. It doesn't mean have to like everyone. I just don't with people that I don't like. Yeah. And so now, for me, success is at my age, and to, young to retire, a tool to it 90 hours a week, it's just finding things that I just find fun and, and useful. 

 Nic: Got a bit of the luxury of choice, yeah, guess that what you do. 

 Paul: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, that's a, that's, that's, that's really frightening. It's, it's the cliff. So sometimes people say, "Oh my goodness, you know, you're on, you know, you're on the Board of Air because they pay you so and so. You know, that's, yeah, that's a lot of money." And I think no, no, no, they're not paying me for that. The pay me for the 25 years I work at it first. Yeah. So, so yeah, yeah. So of course the money that you can earn and, yeah, if you look at the rates, the senior partners of law firms, judge, you might think it's obscene, but it isn't because you're paying for all the work that got them there in the first place. 

 Nic: Years of experience, yeah. Okay, I'm going to ask you for your advice for students and, young alumni. You've worked because so many environments, from large firms to in-house roles and now consulting. And what would you, advice would you give to students trying to decide which path is right for them? 

 Paul: Don't make decisions in a rigid way. If, if you think that going to a magic circle or a US law firm and earning billions as a, as a young lawyer is for you, volume, but they have to hear you hate it, let them be bound by it. I'm not going to make sort of metaphorical analogies, about rivers flowing or things like that, but, but that's really how you get out, how you need to be. Just, just do what you think is right for you at the time, and don't preplan. Don't say, you know, "I'm a trainee at, like, later I'm going to be upon returning, like..." Just to stay open to do so, to stay open, to stay open to different things. Yeah, yeah. 

 Nic: And what do you think is the most valuable skills for young professionals, which we might have sort of just touched upon, entering legal or financial sectors today? 

 Paul: Well, precisely that just, knowing that you've got to learn more. Yeah. I'm quite fortunate in that my personality traits aren't quite mathematical. And I knew when I read law, I thought law was words. And it turned out the, the type of law the idea is actually numbers as well, because the client says, "Okay, can you describe the way I want to make money in, you know, in words?" So that's just a, that's just an example formula. Yeah, it's just an example of just being adaptable. 

 Nic: Yeah, and is there a common mistake you see people make early in their careers? 

 Paul: Correct, and absolutely correct, yeah. Choose it too early. Choosing to say, "I want to be X," yep, and then if X isn't working for them, the inability to, to, to move away from X at the right time. 

 Nic: Yeah, so having that kind of openness to different opportunities, yeah. A couple more questions. Okay, is there a book, podcast or film that has inspired your thinking recently that you would recommend? 

 Paul: No, I thought about this question and I deliberately answered no, because that's like, there are tons and tons of things that I read and podcasts I listen to, but they're right for me and, yeah, and what I do. So, so, for example, you know, I could sit here and say, "Listen to The Rest is History podcast," which I do, but yeah, that might be useless to anyone that's watching this podcast. So, I suppose if you go on to the generic sites like TED Talks and find what's, you know, what is right for you, but, but, but no, I certainly wouldn't say you must read X, you must listen to Y because that, the, that, that, that would, that would be completely consistent with my constant theme of adaptability and what's right for you. 

 Nic: Yeah, maybe the perfect podcast hasn't been made yet, but why don't we make it? And final question: what's the best piece of advice you've ever received that's still relevant to you today? 

 Paul: That is from the, I'm going to name-drop now, actually. So the first person I shared an office with when I was a trainee was, cohort Matthew Leighton, who went on to become the globally important of Chance. And we're still friends. It's kind of, it's kind of weird, by the way, when you, when your mentor becomes a friend, and, and, and it was, and it was actually him that pulled me off on, on those two times that I said earlier. Read, be prepared. Yeah, yeah. So that's the, yeah, I can just remember in 1999 feeling humiliated that I hadn't read. 

 Nic: Yeah, good advice, great advice. That is all, and thank you so much for joining us today, Paul, and for sharing all of your wisdom, and also for all the work you do for the pro bono clinic and mentoring our students. 

 Paul: I really enjoyed it. And what I would stress to people as they go through their careers: you can start doing pro bono work really early in your career because you, if you can write a letter and there is someone who can't write a letter, then you can help them. 

 Nic: Yeah, I can imagine people see a barrier to doing pro bono work that they aren't experienced enough, so that's really a good piece of advice, yeah, definitely. It's easy to feel that imposter syndrome, isn't it, when people new and shiny and you've just trained and you're early in your career? 

Paul: Yes. Where do you get advice?

 Nic: Thank you. 

 Paul: My pleasure.