In the first episode of this new podcast series, LLB student Alex Gill speaks with Amanda Crutchley, Head of Pro Bono at the University, and asks her 24 questions to learn more about her role, her background and the opportunities pro bono work offers.
In the first episode of this new podcast series, LLB student Alex Gill speaks with Amanda Crutchley, Head of Pro Bono at the University, and asks her 24 questions to learn more about her role, her background and the opportunities pro bono work offers.
24 Questions in 2024: with Amanda Crutchley, Head of Pro Bono
[00:00:00] Alex Gill: Hello and welcome to The University of Law podcast and this is our series of 24 questions in 2024. I'm Alex Gill and I'm an LLB student at Bristol campus and I'm one of the hosts for this pod- new podcast series, uh, talking with various guests like Amanda from across the University and asking them 24 questions to find a bit more about them, about their roles and any other interesting insights. So, as you heard today we're joined by Amanda Crutchley. She is our Head of Pro Bono here at the University and so welcome Amanda. Hi to the podcast.
[00:00:34] Amanda Crutchley: Thank you very much. Hi, hi Alex.
[00:00:36] Alex Gill: So, to start things off Amanda, could you perhaps tell our listeners in 60 seconds or so a little bit about yourself and your role at the University here?
[00:00:45] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah, okay. Um, so my background is I'm a Criminal Defense Lawyer. So, I was a Criminal Defense Lawyer, started my training contract in Liverpool, and moved down to the Bristol area and I was a Criminal Defense Lawyer for about [00:01:00] 22 years, working in the- the courts here before I moved fully full-time over to the University.
[00:01:06] Alex Gill: Thank you very much.
[00:01:08] Amanda Crutchley: Is that 60 seconds? That's about 60 seconds, isn't it? I was trying to squeeze that in then.
[00:01:12] Alex Gill: That's fine, that's fine. And then, um, what did you, um, what did you most enjoy about the, um, about your job as well?
[00:01:20] Amanda Crutchley: Um, previously, in criminal defense, I- I love the thrill of the court. I'm- I'm a bit of a court junkie. I- I love the adrenaline of the courts, the theatre of the courts, um, human nature. And that kinda, I'm- I'm hoping that that is, um, kind of transferred as well to- to students. What I love about the job I do at the minute is it's just seeing the next generation of lawyers coming through, trying to support them, trying to inspire them, um, you know, making sure they go on the right journey. Um, I- I just love that interaction with students. Yeah, so...
[00:01:58] Alex Gill: Yeah.
[00:01:58] Amanda Crutchley: It's- It's a [00:02:00] daily joy to be- to be kind of working in this job.
[00:02:05] Alex Gill: And then I guess kind of looking forward, um, you know, in terms of helping the students in the next generation, um, would you probably say that the pro bono work and obviously that's what you advocate the most for, you know, that's the most important thing. So, could you just explain what pro bono is and how that works?
[00:02:25] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah, so the idea of pro bono, it's- it's a really lovely concept really, it's- it's kind of, I always kind of think of it as a triangle in relation to, the- the aim of it is to give free legal advice and assistance to members of the public, so it's not that far, you know, from legal aid work, it's social welfare, it's in the main, it's helping people who are just desperate for some legal advice and assistance, you know, unmet need that- that couldn't be achieved otherwise so it's- it's helping that. Who does that? It's the students. It's you guys who are coming into our legal advice clinics that we run. I mean, we try and [00:03:00] mirror law firms really in- in what we- we do. We offer, you know, helping members of the public and students are engaging in that. So, it's giving you, you know, amongst your studies, it's giving you that taste of what it's like to be a lawyer and- and seeing how what you're learning is applied in practice.
[00:03:17] Amanda Crutchley: And- and also it's, you know, helping you network, meet- meet solicitors, understand the kind of context of- of what you're going into. So, it's- it's a win-win for everyone. And, you know, and students are engaging as well, they're meeting prospective employers. So, it just is a really lovely, um, thing for students to engage in, to- to hopefully, you know, realise our ambitions, understand the context of what they're learning, and network in the legal community that they're a part of.
[00:03:49] Amanda Crutchley: And, you know, the one thing I really want students to take away with them is, you know, no matter what field they're going into, it's that ethos of helping people, making a difference. And, [00:04:00] you know, even students that go into corporate, um, law in the future and corporate careers or- or, you know, other careers beyond law that, you know, every company has a charity of the year. Every company, you know, has a kind of a CSR policy. It's- it's just a lovely ethos that 'I'm making a difference to someone's life. Today, I changed a life.' You know, and that's why many of us wanted to do law really. We wanted to make a difference. So that's- that's what pro bono is.
[00:04:27] Alex Gill: And then, kind of picking up where you went off there, so would you say, um, you know, students obviously should consider doing pro bo- pro bono work but it's not just to help their future career but it's also to help kind of the moral aspect of what we all want to do entering law, is kind of giving back to- to people.
[00:04:44] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, everybody will know about the legal aid cuts that came in, you know, a decade ago now, uh, you know, legal aid was decimated across the country. So many people, you know, parents wanting contact with their children, um, [00:05:00] immigration advice, employment law advice, um, people just wanting to separate and stay in a house. Um, legal aid, you know, any help and assistance just appeared for that. And- and so there's- there's so many people and, you know, alongside that advice agencies are disappearing as well. And system advice is closing down, law centres are closing down. So, there's huge waves of people within the community that just don't have the money to pay for legal advice, that are desperate for some guidance. And I think it's great, you know, there is a role here, we're not replacing legal aid but there is a real role here for law students to make a difference to people's lives.
[00:05:37] Amanda Crutchley: Um, you know, we train you, we support you in pro bono, um, and you know, you can- you can be present in clinics going out to the community.
[00:05:44] Amanda Crutchley: I know that Alex, you've been into- into a school to teach, um, students about citizenship and the law, um. There's so many varieties of Pro Bono schemes that students can engage in. Um, but the idea, you know, the number of them all [00:06:00] is, you're really making a difference to people in the community, really helping empower them to understand something that's so complex, um, for the layperson to understand about, you know, what do I need to do if I need to- to see my child? How- how do I start this journey? What do I do? What- what does all this terminology mean? Um, you know, young people in schools understanding, the law of consent, you know, if they stray on the wrong side of that, the- the impact for them could be devastating. So, you know, law students, you guys can make a real difference to people. I think students love that, you know, the majority, you know, come to learn about the law, it's fascinating, it's responding to variety but it's really helping make a difference to people's lives. Yeah.
[00:06:44] Alex Gill: I was going to say, just the kind of next follow up for the pro bono work is kind of, you've listed some of the, um, kind of skills that people develop doing it but I wanted, if you want to just give a specific example of one area of like pro bono work you could do, and [00:07:00] kind of the skills you, as a student, would gain from it.
[00:07:02] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah, I mean every- every opportunity we design, each Pro Bono Coordinator designs, there's a team we design these schemes to hopefully, you know, look at what need there is in a community, um, to- to ensure that they are, you know, challenging for you but not like you're being sent out feeling like lambs to the slaughter, I hope, um, but- but also, and we support you but also to, you know, a wealth of skills, transferable skills, even students that don't want to go into being lawyers, um, you come away with fantastic transferable skills, presentation skills, communication skills, um, understanding professional ethics, how to be professional.
[00:07:44] Amanda Crutchley: I mean, you know, it's- it's lip service saying all that without giving you some context. So, just as an example, we, um, do, um, you know Alex, you go- go into schools and we do workshops and presentations and when you're designing these [00:08:00] presentations you have to think about your audience, um, so that's client care. You know what age? What do they want to know? What's, you know, is English their first language? Um, what do we need to think about to make it interactive? That's developing your presentation skills, your communication skills, your legal research skills, um, and also a lot of these, um, lots of kind of companies and law firms now are doing virtual interviews and virtual presentations as well, so it's also giving you really practical experience about how to effectively present to people, how to communicate through a virtual area, because that's where a lot of interviews are- are now going away from that kind of face-to-face interview situation. So hopefully there's lots of transferable skills there.
[00:08:43] Amanda Crutchley: We also do opportunities with Amnesty International where students, always kind of use this example, just say, how to- to show what transferable skills can be gained from opportunity with Amnesty International, we highlight to you a case study, so recently, we did one, um, focusing on somebody who was on death row in Alabama, who's facing execution for a crime they say they didn't commit. And students, um, you know, wi- will learn about the fact that Amnesty International feel there's been a human rights violation there. And we teach students about the international human rights laws. We- we give them an overview of domestic human rights laws and laws of states. Um, in relation that are relevant to that particular case and then students go away. It's an interesting case, they do legal research and then they draft a letter, um, to a nominated person that is persuasive, professional, objective, you know, removing politics, removing emotion, um, just highlighting what legal research they've done, what advice they would give, what they want to change. And that's effectively what you do as a lawyer, you- you- you- you hear about your client's case, you conduct legal research, and then you write to the client, telling them objectively, professionally, unemotively, what they should do next, [00:10:00] and- and support that advice with legal research. And so, a really interesting case study actually is mirroring what somebody does in practice.
[00:10:07] Amanda Crutchley: So, these opportunities are designed to give you a wealth of transferable skills, so students can go into interviews to say, you know "Yes, I have these skills but, you know, here is a kind of a contextual example of where I've demonstrated those skills. You know, hire me. I'm a safe pair of hands. I know what I'm doing." But also it shows that students can go the extra mile. You know, you're doing more than just what you have to do at the University. You've- you've got time management skills, you've got that energy to engage in extracurricular, um, work.
[00:10:35] Amanda Crutchley: And that you know, the feedback from a lot of law firms is that, I was speaking to some Pro Bono Coordinators today about it, you know, firms are saying, you know, there's three things that we look for in a student. One is the student itself, um, two is the grades but three is what else are they doing? What else are they doing beyond their studies? So, it's really important for- for all students as well to engage in some pro bono work, get some practical experience. That [00:11:00] was a bit of a long answer to your question, wasn't it?
[00:11:03] Alex Gill: That's fine. And then, um, obviously I, you know, you know and I know that I've done a bit of pro bono myself and I totally agree the- the skills it gives you, the transferable, um, of just learning how to present yourself or deal with day-to-day issues. I think it's just really good opportunity to get.
[00:11:20] Amanda Crutchley: I think what, you know what, people probably listen to don't know, you went out to a- a- a girl's school, didn't you? And you delivered a presentation to hundreds of- of 14 year old girls, which is a kind of a challenging audience to say the least. How did you find it? Did you enjoy the day? Um.
[00:11:37] Alex Gill: Yeah, yeah, I did enjoy the day. It was really good. As you said, it was- it was a challenging experience but I think, you know, once you got started and once you got into the- into the groove of things, it was, um, it was just really enjoyable actually, you know, get, as you say, giving back to the, um, to the students and just kind of enabling that community, kind of, making the law accessible, which is what the whole, for me, the whole [00:12:00] nice point about pro bono is, is, um, was given back. So yeah, I really enjoyed it. So yeah, I think pro bono is that sort of, it's a mix between a challenge and- and the- and the reward you get back from doing it, so.
[00:12:12] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:12:14] Alex Gill: Um, but to- to link onto that, how can, um, how can students get started with the pro bono work themselves?
[00:12:21] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah, so every- every campus has a Pro Bono Coordinator, um, so you can just email your Pro Bono team. Um, the majority, online campus will obviously have a virtual Pro Bono Coordinator but every other, um, Pro Bono Department is under Employability. Um, we all have an office on campus, so we're there, we're contactable by email, and we- we can show you how to sign up. Students can sign up at any time of year, um, to pro bono. So, you know, sometimes I know Alex, you've just had exams. It's a busy period for you in- in January. You know, you won't be the only one that's- that January is a busy time because there's application deadlines, um, as [00:13:00] well. So, you know, if any students still are interested in it or, you know, when they join University, want to know about it and, you know, have maybe missed the email saying, you know, here's- here's an overview of what we do. And just come and talk to us. You know, we- we love, the joy for us, as I said at the beginning, the joy for us is speaking to you, getting to know you.
[00:13:18] Amanda Crutchley: So, you know, for you, Alex, as an example, I used you as an example, you know, we saw you, um, at the beginning of term, we got to know you. And the more we get to know you as well, you know, we can say to you, you know "Hi Alex, have you thought about this firm? You know, we- we think you'd be really suited to this" or maybe "You haven't got this experience on your CV. Come and, you know, maybe have a think about this event or this scheme." Um, and also just to know, you know, it's just lovely to have that communication with you really, and that ongoing discourse to see how you're doing, how we can support you best. Um.
[00:13:51] Alex Gill: Yeah.
[00:13:52] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah, I say-
[00:13:53] Alex Gill: It's more of a personable experience, isn't it?
[00:13:55] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah, it's really lovely to kind of get to know you. I hope you feel like you can drop into the office [00:14:00] anytime and ask us any questions. Um, but yeah, students shouldn't feel like they can't contact us. You know, students can sign up. We have a portal, Employability portal, where all our opportunities are posted. Um, you know, students should probably be already on that to book careers appointments but, you know, if any student hasn't been on it yet or isn't sure about how to access it, email, you know, whatever the campus is, you know, so for you, email bristolprobono@law.ac.uk, um, or just drop into the office to see your Pro Bono Coordinators. You know, we'd- we'd love- we'd love to see as many- as many as possible, um, of- of students coming through our doors. That's what we miss. That's where we get our kind of joy from in our days is seeing you. So please don't feel, anyone listening to this, that, um, you know, you can't just come and see us drop in, send us an email. We'd be delighted to see everybody.
[00:14:51] Alex Gill: Exactly, and as you said, I've- I've done it myself and it's- it's so easy and once you've, um, built that connection with the team, it's just, um, yeah, it's really easy to get involved with [00:15:00] everything. So I'd absolutely recommend going along and seeing your, uh, Careers team or Pro Bono Coordinator at your campus.
[00:15:06] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah.
[00:15:06] Alex Gill: Um, and then I guess a bit of an open-ended question but do you think if someone's interested in doing pro bono, should they focus it on the area of law they want to go into? Or should they pick an area they're unsure of to kind of get a taste of the work that they might receive?
[00:15:24] Amanda Crutchley: Both actually have benefits. I think, you know, as an example, if there are any students wanting to do family law, um, family law is a kind of closed-court, closed-appointments, generally, just because of the nature of the work. So sometimes, you know, pro bono can be the only way really students can get any practical experience of family law. You know, you can't. If you want to do crime, you can always drop in any time at the Crown Court, or you can listen to the kind of Supreme Court cases online. Um, family law is harder to do that. So, you know, anyone wanting to go into that area, [00:16:00] it's- it's quite good to gain experience of the area you want to go into.
[00:16:04] Amanda Crutchley: Um, I think for others, though, it does give you a taste of, you know, maybe things that you think, actually, I hadn't really thought about that. Um, even for students just starting with us, I would say one of the first things everybody should do is go on a court visit because I think if you, you know, you get that thrill of a court, that tribunal, you enjoy the theatre of the court. Um, you know, that's something that's really informative of, you know, "I- I don't want to be based in office". Some students come along and think "I actually, you know, court work, tribunal work isn't for me". Um, and so it does inform you of- of what- what you want to do.
[00:16:40] Amanda Crutchley: We- we do in our Pro Bono schemes, we do teach you, um, some of the law in relation to that area just so you can have context but what we're not doing is- is making, you know, if you do an opportunity in relation to family law as an example, we're not training you to be a family lawyer. It doesn't matter what area of the law you're doing. It's like you said before, it's [00:17:00] the skills that you're gaining that are important rather than particularly the area of the law. But yeah, you will learn something about law in that area.
[00:17:06] Amanda Crutchley: Also, it just gives you the taste, you know, some students say, you know "Gosh, I love that human rights law experience. I hadn't thought about doing that but actually maybe I will now." Or some students kind of might say, you know, "I loved- I love going along to-" we take students to the police misconduct tribunals. Um, yeah, "I really enjoyed that tribunal hearing that, that setting. No, I'd love to do that. I don't want to be in office all day." So, you know, it's, it just informs you. The more you do of it, the more informed you are when you have to start making decisions.
[00:17:37] Alex Gill: Yeah, I think we might have, we may have touched on this already but, um, the kind of typical day of pro bono work changes on the sort of activity or experience you're- you're doing. But I guess, roughly, would you like to outline what a typical day of pro bono work could look like for a student?
[00:17:55] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah, it usually varies. I mean, what we don't do is make it so onerous that it's going to [00:18:00] impact your studies at all. So, we're very careful to ensure that, you know, that the time run into it, that the expectation upon you isn't too onerous. Um, so it, it does, it does vary hugely in relation to, um, what you do on a day-to-day basis.
[00:18:16] Amanda Crutchley: And I think one of the joys of The University of Law with the pro bono as well is lots of- lots of universities have law clinics but a lot of them are very static. They're a clinic that is set up in but covering various areas of the law. Um, it runs on a particular day to members of the public. Um, we don't do that.
[00:18:36] Amanda Crutchley: We- we have flexible opportunities and the joy of that is that we can respond to need. So our- our clinics, we don't have a set static law clinic per se. We have a whole range of clinics running and opportunities running. And the joy of that is that we can respond. So, if we, for example, in the pandemic, um, we were able to step up our Small [00:19:00] Business Advice Line scheme for, we recognised that a lot of people were making hobbies into jobs and they were doing startups, you know, they couldn't go into work anymore. They've been made redundant. So somebody who said "Hey, I love making...", I don't know, "cakes and now everybody wants cake deliveries at home. I'm going to set up a cake startup business." We were able to say "It actually isn't- there's tons of people out there who are starting up as little entrepreneurs. Why don't we set up a small business advice line to help those people?"
[00:19:29] Amanda Crutchley: So our- our days aren't set days like, um, some university Pro Bono clinics are. We're- we're really flexible. And so, but I think that helps you guys as well because you don't have to, you know, everybody can do it. The schemes run throughout the week on different days, on evenings. Um, but it does allow everybody to engage. As well for different times and, you know, we have clinics running through the day. We have week of opportunities when you do those online presentations running throughout the [00:20:00] term.
[00:20:01] Amanda Crutchley: Um, but yeah there- there is no one set day but I think the theme of it is, you know, supporting students, getting the skills on the CV and helping people in the community get the advice they need. They're the- they're the key themes that run through every day.
[00:20:15] Alex Gill: Yeah, that's a nice way of putting it as well and kind of, um, to follow on from that is kind of, I totally agree with the, um, time commitment. It's- it's- it's up to you how much time you can either put in or want to put in, um, and we obviously give quite a big, um, kind of a, I guess a runway for people to know what they've got to do and when they got to do it. So for when I went to that school, I had about a month to make the presentations, didn't I? So I guess the time commitment's up to the student themselves, isn't it?
[00:20:46] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah, absolutely. You know, we do, the clinics that we run, so we have clinics in wills and trusts, in small business, in family law, you know, students can say "Well, actually, my time is so limited." I mean, we- we wholly [00:21:00] appreciate that so many of students now are having to work. Um, you know, the times are hard. Lots of students have to work, so they have other commitments, maybe caring responsibilities, maybe commuting responsibilities.
[00:21:12] Amanda Crutchley: And so if a student just says, you know, "This month I only have a couple of hours to give," that's fine. We have schemes for you. Don't do any prep work. Drop in and be an observer. That's one of the clinics where our lawyers are giving advice to members of the public, you know, see the law in action, listen, learn, um, take away some kind of like headline learning from it, some- some skills for your CV.
[00:21:36] Amanda Crutchley: Um, but other students might say "Well, I have more time." We'll say "Great, you know. Do the clinic again then a number of times" or, you know, "Be the student that calls the client and triages them". Practicing your client care, your communication, you know, prepping questions for the client. So yeah, whatever time commitment the student has, we've got something for them to do.
[00:21:58] Amanda Crutchley: Um, you know, there's [00:22:00] even just- even if you just got through the whole academic year two hours, there is something that we can give you to put on your CV and gain some valuable skills, you know, little- little input, lot of output.
[00:22:13] Alex Gill: Yeah, exactly. And I guess, um, just to kind of captivate the people listening, um, do you want to just do a roll call of different organisations and companies that we work with to help put these opportunities together?
[00:22:25] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah, I'm gonna- I'm gonna, you put me on the spot there, trying to think of them all. Um, right, so, um, we work with Organisations Assistance Advice, Schools Consent Project, um, we work with law firms such as, um, Freeths, Knights, Womble Bond Dickinson, Irwin Mitchell, um, Shoosmiths nationally. So some really great law firms, uh, supporting, um, we work with law centers, local law centers, work with the courts and tribunals.
[00:22:58] Amanda Crutchley: And we work with organisations that [00:23:00] in-house like Disney support our small business advice clinic and they're- they're fantastic. They came on the call with all their kind of sign-off signatures have little Mickey Mouse ears above them. Anyone thinks "I want to work with Disney!" And just great organisations and companies that are supporting.
[00:23:15] Amanda Crutchley: And also, you know, that their lawyers are really generous that giving up their time and, you know, you can stay on the call afterwards with somebody from Disney and say "What's it like to work as an in house lawyer?", um, you know, "Can you tell me about your pathway into that organisation?"
[00:23:30] Amanda Crutchley: Um, same, you know, the courts as well. People- people are very generous in the legal community with their time. Um, we work with lots of kind of barristers, um, individual assistants as well. And we do, you know, you come on the law clinic when they're giving the advice and assistance to the client. And as well as asking them about, you know, "Why did you give that advice to the client?", "Why do you think this is that?", you know, "I would have done 'X'. Why did you do Y?" Um, as well as kind of specific questions in relation to, um, the advice given and the client work. [00:24:00]
[00:24:00] Amanda Crutchley: Also there's that opportunity to say to the lawyer, you know, "What's it like to work for a company in family law?", you know, "How do you leave what you see in a day at home...", you know, "at work at five o'clock and go home?", and "How do you balance that?" So, there's- there's a really great opportunity as well to- to ask some of those questions that you don't have opportunities to ask otherwise.
[00:24:21] Amanda Crutchley: But yeah, a whole, kind of, span of organisations, companies, charities that we work with as well, which are great, you know, to put on your CV. You know, if you put on your CV that you've worked with the Schools Consent Project or Shoosmiths, you know, they're really reputable organisations that you've got on your CV that you can say, you know, I was Professional Ambassador for The University of Law. Um, and- and, you know, they are reputable and they give a lot back as well to the students that engage with them.
[00:24:52] Alex Gill: That is very impressive role call, especially off the top of your head.
[00:24:55] Amanda Crutchley: I'll think of loads more now as I go, I think "I should have mentioned that [00:25:00] one." Yeah, apologies to anybody I missed that. I was, um, yeah.
[00:25:06] Alex Gill: So, for any, um. So, any students that are listening to this and going "I want to get involved in pro bono work," what would you give them any couple of words of advice for, um, for someone interested in getting involved?
[00:25:18] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah, just do it. Um, you know, and even if you're not sure, come and talk to us. Um, you know, hopefully you'll come and see us and we will ignite that flame and I'm really encouraging, you know, some students may lack confidence saying "I haven't done any legal clinic work before," like you know, "I'm a- I'm a transferring student," "I'm a mature student," "I'm a conversion student," um, "I'm a visa student," you know, but everyone can be engaged, you know, these pro bono is designed to, to make sure it's inclusive for everybody, whatever your, you know, whatever your hurdles may be. And so, um, yeah, just come along, chat to us, like I said, you know, [00:26:00] call in and see your Pro Bono Coordinator on campus. Um, email 'probono-' whatever your campus is, you know, 'probono-newcastle', 'probono-leeds@law' and just, you know, ask any questions and I'm sure once we speak to you, understand, you know, what your legal journey you're hoping for is, we can really support you with that. Getting some skills on your CV.
[00:26:26] Amanda Crutchley: And I think You know, the words of reassurance, I hope, you know, we're not, we're not scary. We're not dragons. Um, if you- if you start and think "You know what, I haven't got the time to do this anymore," or "Oh gosh, I've got a really heavy workshop," um, just let us know- you know, that's- that's fine. You're not- you're not committed. You're not contracted to it. Um, if, you know, if you start and find that you just- you just haven't got the time to do it anymore, that's fine. You will have gained something from that whilst you can commit.
[00:26:53] Amanda Crutchley: So, you know- you know but I'm sure students that do engage, um, really enjoy the- [00:27:00] the engagement with pro bono. Um, you know, it brings- it brings alive what you're doing. It brings to life what you're reading, what you're prepping for in your workshop. I mean, I teach on the LLB, I know how hard your consolidation, your preparation is. Um, you know, this- this just brings it, what you're reading and- you're reading this alive and you can make- you can make a difference to somebody's life before you're even qualified. It's- it's a great feeling.
[00:27:24] Amanda Crutchley: Um, as well as, you know, that nitty gritty builds on your CV that will be invaluable and- and just that experience.
[00:27:31] Amanda Crutchley: I think like, you know, the confidence that you get from thinking when you start your- your Qualified Work Experience or those that got training contracts going to training contracts still, um, you know, and somebody said "Oh, can you go after witness statement?", that's why I had to do on my first day. Someone said "Draft a witness statement for me." And I thought "I don't know how a witness statement looks like." Um, to have had that experience of understanding it, having done it, will give you that confidence just to hit the ground running. So it's- it's not just [00:28:00] about getting skills for your CV. It's knowing, having that confidence to go into an interview and say "Yeah, I do know what I'm doing." And then when you start your journey, knowing what you're doing and- and feeling confident in your- your capabilities as well, you'll- you'll get that- you'll get that feedback to- to help you reflect on your learning and- and to develop yourself. It's a win-win, Alex. Well, you know.
[00:28:21] Alex Gill: I was gonna say, it's a win-win. I just love it. Exactly. Yeah, just- just do it. That's- that's the word.
[00:28:26] Amanda Crutchley: Just do it. Just do it. And if, you know, if you start, you can always change your mind.
[00:28:32] Alex Gill: Exactly. And I guess some linking to that quite well, um, do you think there's one standout or like proudest achievement you've done yourself in- in the pro bono work that's, I don't know, had the biggest impact on a community or- or the best self-achievement for yourself whilst doing it?
[00:28:49] Amanda Crutchley: Aw, I'm trying to think now, um.
[00:28:52] Alex Gill: I've put you on the spot again.
[00:28:54] Amanda Crutchley: No. One of the things I did which started me on pro bono is, um, a [00:29:00] number of years ago I was contacted when I was, um, in practice, I was contacted by the local police to go into every school in, um, the Bristol area to deliver sessions to children on knife crime and the dangers of knife crime and to understand the implications of carrying knives. A lot of it was carrying knives for self-defense, um, and actually it was really a fabulous experience to go to all the schools, to meet those young people, and, um, you know, to be part of- of a project run by many organisations, the police, um, different organisations going to schools to support those young people, understanding the dangers that, you know, we've all been 13, 14, don't we? You know, you don't- you don't see dangers. And I just hope that, you know, someone, there was some disclosures about people who said "You know, I'm really scared about this happening to me-", "That happening to me," I know "X person carries a knife," et cetera, et cetera. But [00:30:00] I just hope that by doing that, um, I did it for about three years, um, I changed, I made a difference to one person that I spoke to and their life going forward to understand, you know, personal choices, good choices going forward. So that- that was something I got really engaged with and got- got a lot out of and that kind of cemented my desire to do pro bono work. Hopefully forevermore.
[00:30:25] Alex Gill: I mean, that's a powerful, um, story, message, to kind of convey the difference scales of the different worker pro bono. It might just be visiting a court or it could lead to a lot more of kind of, um, being that link between the community and local authorities and everything as well.
[00:30:40] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, you do get- you do, you know, you will- you will see clients in- in the clinics who, you know, you will make a really difference to their- their lives.
[00:30:51] Amanda Crutchley: I mean, one of our- one of our relevant students at Bristol, he engaged in a Welfare Benefit Tribunal scheme, and [00:31:00] he, um, on his first-ever case he was terrified. He looked like we were- we were supporting him through it but he got, he was the Advocate for a welfare benefit tribunal for somebody who'd had their benefits refused and they were desperate. And he contacted me afterwards to say "I won that case. I won that case. I got five thousand pounds for them," in, um, reclaim benefit. And that meant that that family weren't evicted from their home and could, you know, could buy food for their- their family forevermore. And I, you know, I- I'm- I'm still in contact with him a number of years later. And he said, you know, that was- that was a life changing moment for him when he achieved that. And, you know, something that you can be- be proud of forevermore. Um, yeah, and that's- that's the kind of thing you do with, with pro bono. You do, you change people's lives.
[00:31:50] Alex Gill: Yeah, totally agree. And, um, I guess the last couple of these are a bit more- a bit more general because I know you're the Head of Pro- I know you're the Head of [00:32:00] Pro Bono but you also, we're part of the Employability team and still are. Um, so what are the other services the Employability team offer to support students with.
[00:32:10] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah, so we- we fall under Employability because we- we are really looking at developing you as a student, making you a, you know, a great all-rounder student. Um, we understand what, you know, we have very strong links with, um, local- local law firms, every Pro Bono Coordinator has been or still is a practicing solicitor with contacts in the community. Um, so we fall within Employability for that reason. And we have very close working relationships with the- the other half of the Employ- Employability team, which are Careers. So, the Employability team, there's one at every campus, are made up of Pro Bono and Careers, and we liaise together to look at how can we best support you, not just getting a job in the [00:33:00] future or getting on the right career but it's the right career path for you, the right job for you, the- the- the job where you're going to succeed, where you're going to thrive.
[00:33:07] Amanda Crutchley: That's what we want you to do. We want every student leaving us to thrive in their career. And that is, you know, by Careers give- giving you the- the support to- to know where to apply to, how to apply, how to shine, to present yourself to your best abilities in an interview, um, to stand out what, you know, abilities you have on your CV, um, how best to answer questions. Some of these are just simple tweaks, you know, you have all the tools. It's just knowing what the law firms are looking for, how to present. Um, and so the Careers give us support with that.
[00:33:43] Amanda Crutchley: We run tens and tens each year of workshops, and talks, and employer talks and obviously, you know, the students will often know the law fairs that run, um. So we- we you know, we try and give you every tool you need to have a really [00:34:00] successful career. And between us, we work closely with our Careers colleagues.
[00:34:03] Amanda Crutchley: So, for example, Alex, if you came into office, which you did, you know, my Careers partner and I will talk about, you know, obviously with your blessing, um, you know, what do we think would be best for Alex to engage in? You know, what maybe he needs to tweak with his CV. Um, and we- we liaise together and try and kind of support you in knowing what's out there. Um, you know, you- you have a wealth of talents, Alex, so it's, you know, understanding how best we can make them shine to their best, um, and, you know, make you attractive to the employers, um, more so than you already will be.
[00:34:38] Amanda Crutchley: And, um, looking a bit also, you know, helping you- you and I've talked about, you know, law firms I think would be a good fit for you and knowing your personality, what you want to do, um, and liaising with Careers about that as well, so. You know, it's a, it's a, it's a kind of all round support, um, group that we're in as well.
[00:34:56] Amanda Crutchley: And also we are, generally on campus, we're the only [00:35:00] office generally, which is an open-door office. You know, obviously student information can't be accessed by students. Um, you know, tutor rooms often can't be accessed by students because of all the private information behind that. The Employability suite is the suite where we say "Come in. See us. Sit down." You know, if you've got 10 minutes before your class, instead of just hanging around the cafe, come and see us, sit down. You know, we'll have a chat to you while you wait. And we're an open-office, we're an open-door. We love to see students come in through that- through that door into the Employability office. Just- just for a general plan. No question is too silly, as they say.
[00:35:31] Alex Gill: Exactly, and I think that's- that's where I started off, wasn't it? I did, um, it was just a general chat with you to work out, um, kind of careers and- and how we get into the law and- and where to go with CVs and stuff.
[00:35:42] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah, just, you know, just basic steps and a lot of students, um, you know, aren't aware, be- because where- where do you find it? That, you know, the- the journey into law is quite a staged one at times, that, you know, you have to start getting opportunities on your CV really in your first year, to apply for Vacation [00:36:00] schemes in your second year, to then apply for your, what would be Qualified Work Experience in your final year. Um, for those PGL students, you know, understanding, you know, transferring and converting, you know, what- what sectors of the law there are, what- what are the practicalities of day-to-day lawyer.
[00:36:16] Amanda Crutchley: You know, for me, I would have loved to know what the practicalities of being a- a Criminal Lawyer, you know, and I know about going to court but what I didn't know about was the kind of the night shifts, the- the ethics behind it, um, the level of responsibility that you'd have, the interaction, you know, how varied and fabulous the day can be.
[00:36:33] Amanda Crutchley: So, you know, come and talk to us about different sectors of the law. You know, what's the practical- practical aspects with that? What firms are hiring? What areas of the law are growing? What's the future in relation to the legal workplace in relation to AI? Hybrid working? We- we have the answers to that.
[00:36:50] Amanda Crutchley: And also, lots of, um, students will have questions in relation to Qualified Work Experience, you know, as work experience I've done, does that count as Qualified Work Experience? And is what I'm doing [00:37:00] now counting as Qualified Work Experience?
[00:37:02] Amanda Crutchley: And I think for each student, there is no general answer to that. There is kind of generic advice but each students circumstance of what they'll have done will be unique to them, and that needs an individual conversation. And so, you know, we're really encouraging students as well to come and see us to have those individual conversations about Qualified Work Experience as well. Does it count? What I'm doing count? What I want to do, will that count?
[00:37:27] Alex Gill: Yeah, I guess, um, leading on from that, is there- is there like, um, a top three or five sort of, um, tips you would have for kind of creating or- or kind of making a good CV for students?
[00:37:40] Amanda Crutchley: Um, I think looking at what skills that aren't currently present on your CV, um, so, you know, do you have those interview questions and CVs are, still, haven't really changed that much in the kind of 40 years or so since I did mine. Um, so [00:38:00] it's looking at, you know, have you got communication skills, client care skills, um, you know, professional skills, um, organisation skills? All those things have to be not blatantly, you know, "I have good communication skills," but can you kind of weave those skills through your CV? Um, so you need to have a look at what skills am I lacking?
[00:38:20] Amanda Crutchley: And also just like we were talking before, weren't we about, you know, that confidence of going into the workplace. I think it's beyond the CV as well. It's- it's what you need to feel that on day one, you can hit the ground running. So, the University, you know, pro bono is a really safe space to make mistakes, um, as well and learn and grow. It's the place to do it.
[00:38:41] Amanda Crutchley: And so, you know, if you- if you made a little boo-boo in relation to some client care and this is- this is the place to do it because, you know, you get the feedback, the reflection, you learn, there's no implications for it. So, as you know, it's- it's beyond just that CV, it's- it's- it's [00:39:00] getting that experience to feel confident going into your career and looking at the skills for both the CV and the career.
[00:39:05] Amanda Crutchley: And then, you know, once you've got those skills, see the Careers Manager who can kind of polish that CV beautifully for you and liaise with you and do those mock interviews to, you know, to really draw out great answers to questions from you and give you that feedback you need to show you how you can, you know, you're not selling yourself as much as you could be.
[00:39:25] Amanda Crutchley: I think students tend to undersell themselves these days. Um, it seems to be a trend that- that people are kind of very hesitant to- to shout about their- their abilities and what they've done. Um, or maybe don't know that actually what they have done is- is, you know, brilliant and law firms really want to hear about this, organisations really want to hear about this. So, um, yes, so between Pro Bono and Careers, we can really have a look at making your CV and your interview and, you know, careers future as best for you as we can, and we have lots of kind of [00:40:00] online guides as well. We can hand out to you, send you, email you, etc.
[00:40:04] Alex Gill: Yeah, I guess it's all about, like, um, just someone helping you, who knows the way to kind of allow you to establish your own- your own path to your own future career, really, isn't it?
[00:40:15] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there might be, you know, there might be things you just haven't thought about, um, as well that, you know, we can speak to, like, you know, like with you, Alex, but, you know, we get to know you, and, you know, maybe suggest, you know, "Have you thought about this, Alex, because you'll really enjoy this?", "But so have you thought about doing x or y?" And um, you know, you've done, you've done loads Alex um, with us, which is- which is great. You know, you've been to court, you know, you understand, you know, maybe you don't want to become a Criminal Lawyer but you know, it's like I said before, it's all informative. Um.
[00:40:49] Alex Gill: Yeah.
[00:40:49] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah.
[00:40:50] Alex Gill: Even if it- even if it shows you why you don't want to do something, it proves that you've- you've narrowed down your options a bit more, haven't you?
[00:40:58] Amanda Crutchley: Yeah, absolutely. I [00:41:00] mean, we always say about work experience, it's as much about learning what's not for you as learning what is for you. I mean, we were laughing when we went out to the school that day and you come away from it exhausted, and you think "I could not be a teacher because I'm so tired." Um, but, you know, it's- it's learning, isn't it about you know, what- what stimulates you? What do you get? What do you enjoy? This is, what do you want to do for the rest of your life in relation to work? What kind of- what kind of career will excite you, you know, light that flame, inspire you? Um, which would be great.
[00:41:36] Amanda Crutchley: Um, you know, and I- I think you get some very objective advice as well from the department. When- when I started, people said, you know, "Don't be a Legal Aid Lawyer. Um, you know, there's no future in it. You'll be poor forever." Um, but I've loved it. You know, I loved it. I wish I'd had a Career Advisor or that taste of pro bono to just cement that design. I mean, I knew I wanted to work with people, I wanted to [00:42:00] help people but I had nobody supporting me to know best how I do that, how I get into that area. Um, and you know, so I stumbled my way through but it would have been great to have somebody to speak to about that, um, at that time. Um, yeah.
[00:42:16] Alex Gill: Yeah. And then, um, I'm going to challenge you now. Um, could you- could you describe the University's Employability services in three words?
[00:42:27] Amanda Crutchley: Oh, okay. Um, indispensable. Can I- can I do that? I'm going to start.
[00:42:36] Alex Gill: Yeah, yeah.
[00:42:37] Amanda Crutchley: I'm trying to think. Um, friendly, open-door, um, that I've gone well-beyond my three words already, haven't I? Um, it's supportive.
[00:42:50] Alex Gill: Yeah, yeah, I'd agree. Those- those really good ones, those. Um, and then kind of to- to finish off, just to get you to know you personally a bit more, um, [00:43:00] we've got eight quickfire questions. Um, that aims to be about, you know, a couple of words sort of thing. Uh, you might have to explain one or two of them but, yeah, we'll, uh, we'll give it a go.
[00:43:13] Alex Gill: Um, so first one, if you could change- if you can make one change in the world, what would it be?
[00:43:18] Amanda Crutchley: Um, to remove injustice.
[00:43:20] Alex Gill: Okay, and then if you're having a dinner party or a tea round at your place, could you name three guests?
[00:43:27] Amanda Crutchley: Who would I- who would I like? Um, I'm trying to think of one person that I really- really would like. Um, I- I really admire Jamie Oliver. Um, so I love what he's doing for kind of like trying to make a difference in schools with school meals, et cetera, et cetera. And he would have the benefit of being able to cook as well. And I think he'd be a bit of a laugh.
[00:43:46] Alex Gill: So, what is your favorite movie?
[00:43:50] Amanda Crutchley: Um, I love um, It's a Wonderful Life. I watch it every Christmas, so probably that would be, it's a kind of a feel-good, um, joy-of-life. [00:44:00] People helping each other, um, so yeah, it ticks all my boxes. Bit- bit nostalgic.
[00:44:08] Alex Gill: That's fine. Um, and then what would you say your favourite way to relax or switch-off your brain would be?
[00:44:17] Amanda Crutchley: I, um, what do I do in my free time to relax? I- I- I- do a little bit of ballet. That's a bit, um.
[00:44:27] Alex Gill: Yeah.
[00:44:28] Amanda Crutchley: Um, probably as well just seeing friends, um, gin and tonic, just yeah, unwinding, relaxing, um, yeah, offloading.
[00:44:39] Alex Gill: Offloading, exactly. Um, if you were stranded on a desert island and could they only take three items, what would those three items be?
[00:44:49] Amanda Crutchley: Do you know what, I can answer this to one of them on this one. Because I've always, when I listen to Desert Islanders, I think, why does nobody take their bed with them? So like, you know, sleep over there. So I would definitely, one of them would be my bed.
[00:44:57] Alex Gill: Yeah, that's a good one [00:45:00] actually.
[00:45:00] Amanda Crutchley: Another would be, maybe I could use it as a raft afterwards if I get really, I'm- I'm not somebody who would thrive on a desert island because I- I love people. So, I- I'd be awful. Probably after a few days of my own company. Um, but, yeah, a bed. Um, I think, definitely photos of my children, that would be the worst thing, I'd- I'd really miss my kids. Um, and- and I also, I love drinking tea, so probably like a, I don't know, a solar powered kettle, I guess.
[00:45:28] Alex Gill: Yeah.
[00:45:28] Amanda Crutchley: Something like that. And a limited supply of tea bags. And a water filter I guess I'd need as well. Can I have all of those? Can I have all of those?
[00:45:37] Alex Gill: Yeah, we'll give you those. Sounds good to me. And then, where is your I guess, where is your favourite place to travel, or where would you like to travel, either or?
[00:45:50] Amanda Crutchley: I have just, literally yesterday, I just got back from South Africa and I adored it. So, um, Africa, at the minute, [00:46:00] I love- I love the colours, I love the, it's just so, it's so different and, um, actually when I was out there, a little plug for everyone, while I was out there, um, I saw lots of organisations as well, you know, that really helping people, empowering people, um, it's, you know, it's- it's a fabulous place, great community, blue- blue skies, especially in this January, where it's grey outside at the minute, you know, really blue skies, so yeah, Africa, I mean, it is my- my place to travel to, I love.
[00:46:29] Alex Gill: And then, who do you most admire and why?
[00:46:33] Amanda Crutchley: This morning I was listening to a podcast with, I don't know if you've ever, do you ever listen to the Rest is Politics?
[00:46:38] Alex Gill: Yeah, I have, yeah.
[00:46:39] Amanda Crutchley: So I was listening this morning to a Rest is Politics podcast. I was admiring kind of like Rory Stewart, who's on there, who is just so measured and thoughtful and informative and I think has a good heart. So he's- he's probably my current person, this morning, who I admire most for those reasons.
[00:46:59] Alex Gill: Current most [admired is him. And then, um, what advice would you give an 18 year old Amanda?
[00:47:08] Amanda Crutchley: Oh, I think- I think probably just to have more confidence in- in kind of what I want to do. Um, to, you know, to be kind of like, to be true to myself, to- to- to know what I like and to just- and just to go for it, not to have any doubt about it. Um, you know, nothing's forever. I think to understand that, you know, things change, doors open, doors close. Um, things- things will work out- things will work out, you know, you find ways.
[00:47:38] Amanda Crutchley: Um, I think there's a lot of pressure at the- at the minute for, you know, I've got an 18 year old who is, you know, going off to university who's like "You know, oh gosh, if I, you know, if I go it's, is this my rest of my life?" And just to kind of reassure him that actually, you know, your- your career path will change, doors will open, you know, you think you want to be, [00:48:00] you know, you might want to go into and be a Criminal Lawyer, but actually, you know, the opportunities arise that, you- you know, you will change, you will grow, go with it, you know. Say yes to- say yes to all the right things, don't say yes to everything, say yes to all the right things, don't be afraid, don't be afraid to give things a go, um. You know, everything will work out and actually, if you change, you've learned something from it.
[00:48:23] Alex Gill: Thank you for joining us, uh, today, Amanda.
[00:48:26] Amanda Crutchley: Thank you Alex.
[00:48:28] Alex Gill: Providing such great insights at all things pro bono. Um, and it's really good insight to know more about you as a person and kind of your reasons for enjoying pro bono. Um, to find out more about our pro bono opportunities at the University and support, uh, from the Employability team, then please visit our website law.ac.uk and also please do just, uh follow up and keep up-to-date with any, um, with the next episode. Um, but, yeah, thanks for listening and goodbye.